The IRN is killing me...
Olá,
Sou impotente ao lidar com o IRN, talvez tenha um bom conselho para mim.
Sou cidadão de Portugal, mas vivo fora de Portugal.
Estou a tentar registar o meu casamento, pelo que enviei toda a documentação necessária e um cheque bancário em euros (emitido pelo meu banco fora de Portugal) – para a central do IRN em Lisboa.
O primeiro contacto do IRN comigo relativamente a este processo foi para me devolver o cheque, fisicamente, por correio normal, informando geralmente que não corresponde aos seus métodos de pagamento, conforme citaram:
"
Atualmente disponíveis estão os seguintes meios de pagamento:
- Vale postal em euros emitido à ordem do Instituto dos Registos e do Notariado, I.P. com a morada da Conservatória;
- Cheque bancário ou visado em euros, à ordem do Instituto dos Registos e do Notariado, I.P., sacado sobre uma entidade com representação em Portugal.
- Através de uma referência de pagamento (bancária) cuja transferência deverá ser previamente solicitada em conjunto com a Conservatória onde o pedido deverá ser apresentado;
Os pedidos remetidos pelo correio deverão ser acompanhados do comprovativo de pagamento.
"
Que é traduzido para inglês como:
"
Os seguintes métodos de pagamento estão atualmente disponíveis:
- Vale postal em euros emitido à ordem do Instituto dos Registos e do Notariado, I.P. com a morada do Conservatório;
- Cheque bancário ou visado em euros, nominal ao Instituto dos Registos e do Notariado, I.P., sacado sobre entidade representada em Portugal.
- Através de uma referência de pagamento (bancária) cuja emissão deverá ser previamente solicitada ao Cartório Notarial onde será apresentado o pedido;
As encomendas enviadas por correio deverão ser acompanhadas do comprovativo de pagamento.
"
Falei com o IRN sobre isso e simplesmente enviaram-me novamente o texto acima…
Nunca explicaram o que não corresponde ao meu cheque.
Verifiquei junto do meu banco e dizem que se trata de um cheque bancário normal em euros, aceite internacionalmente, e nunca tiveram problemas com estes cheques.
O valor é de 120 euros.
O valor “Pay To:” é o que pediram – “Instituto dos Registos e do Notariado, I.P.”
O campo "Para:" na parte inferior do cheque refere-se ao "UNICREDIT BANK AG" (e à sua morada na Alemanha)
O meu banco disse-me que o banco aceitante em Portugal está a enviar o cheque para o banco acima mencionado na Alemanha para receber o dinheiro, é um processo interbancário para recolher o dinheiro.
Infelizmente, o IRN não oferece um método de pagamento moderno e imediato, como a transferência bancária ou o cartão de crédito online (como qualquer loja online básica na Internet).
Então, tem alguma ideia de como posso resolver isto?
Algum outro método de pagamento normal?
Alguém a quem reclamar disto no governo português?
Obrigado!
________________________
In English:
Hello,
I am helpless dealing with the IRN, maybe you will have a good advice for me.
I am a citizen of Portugal, but live outside of Portugal.
I am trying to register my marriage, so I sent all the needed paperwork and a bank cheque in Euros (procued by my non-Portugal bank) – to the IRN central office in Lisbon.
IRN's first contact with me regarding this process was to send back to me the cheque, physically, by regular mail, generally stating it is not matching their payment methods, as they quoted:
"
Presentemente estão disponíveis os seguintes meios de pagamento:
- Vale postal em euros emitido à ordem do Instituto dos Registos e do Notariado, I.P. com a morada da Conservatória;
- Cheque bancário ou visado em euros, à ordem do Instituto dos Registos e do Notariado, I.P., sacado sobre entidade com representação em Portugal.
- Através de uma referência de pagamento (bancária) cuja emissão deve ser previamente solicitada junto da Conservatória onde o pedido irá ser apresentado;
Os pedidos remetidos pelo correio devem ser acompanhados do comprovativo de pagamento.
"
Which is translated to English as:
"
The following payment methods are currently available:
- Postal order in euros issued to the order of the Institute of Registries and Notaries, I.P. with the address of the Conservatory;
- Bank or certified check in euros, made payable to the Instituto dos Registos e do Notariado, I.P., drawn on an entity represented in Portugal.
- Through a payment reference (bank) whose issuance must be previously requested from the Notary's Office where the request will be presented;
Orders sent by mail must be accompanied by proof of payment.
"
I approached IRN about this and they simply sent me again the above text…
They never explained what is not matching with my cheque.
I checked with my bank, and they say it is a regular internationally accepted bank cheque in Euro, and they never had an issue with such cheques.
The amount is 120 Euros.
The "Pay To:" value is as they asked for – "Instituto dos Registos e do Notariado, I.P."
The "To:" field at the bottom of the cheque is referring to "UNICREDIT BANK AG" (and its address in Germany)
My bank told me that the accepting bank in Portugal is sending the cheque to the above bank in Germany to get the money, it is an inter-bank process to collect the money.
Unfortunately, IRN doesn't offer a modern and immediate payment method like bank wire transfer or online credit card (like any basic online store on the Internet).
So, do you have any idea how can I solve this?
Any other normal payment method?
Anyone to complain to about this in the Portuguese government?
Thank you!
Comentários
@portugalman8
nao ficou claro pra mim se o seu primeiro idioma é o portugues ou o ingles. Responderei em ingles.
meu conselho: nao perca tempo brigando com o IRN. Peça que devolvam os documentos e faça o processo de registro do seu casamento junto a um consulado portugues no país onde vive.
cada consulado tem duas proprios regras, portanto consulte o consulado mais proximo.
por exemplo, se mora em Bayern ou Baden-Wurtenberg, o consulado que atende esses estados é o de Estugarda.
boa Sorte
@portugalman8
Sugiro que envie o pedido de transcrição de casamento para a CRC Porto, seguindo o guia abaixo:
https://forum.cidadaniaportuguesa.com/discussion/23255/lista-basica-para-transcricao-de-casamento-em-portugal-pela-crc-do-porto
A CRC Porto vai examinar a documentação e, se estiver tudo OK, irá enviar um link para pagamento por cartão de crédito.
Aqui estão alguns comentários recentes no fórum sobre quanto tempo tem levado esse processo lá:
https://forum.cidadaniaportuguesa.com/discussion/comment/346069#Comment_346069
@portugalman8
Just to let you know what's wrong with your check a bank check is a check issue by the bank itself and drawn against the bank account. A certified check is a check where the bank guarantees that it is legitimate and the amount will be paid (usually the bank put the check amount on hold until it's paid).
It's an old and obsolete practice, but the IRN sticks to it because bureaucracy.
You could go in person to your bank agency and get one of those checks or do like the guys before me said, ditch the IRN and to it on your consulate or on the Port city CRC.
Good luck
@eduardo_augusto
nao ficou claro pra mim se o seu primeiro idioma é o portugues ou o ingles. Responderei em ingles.Resposta em inglês:
meu conselho: nao perca tempo brigando com o IRN. Peça que devolvam os documentos e faça o processo de registro do seu casamento junto a um consulado portugues no país onde vive.cada consulado tem duas proprios regras, portanto consulte o consulado mais proximo.por exemplo, se mora em Bayern ou Baden-Wurtenberg, o consulado que atende esses estados é o de Estugarda.Ficou engraçado. Parece ironia. E talvez seja e eu não pesquei...
@Destefano
nao, foi erro mesmo! Deveria ser, „responderei em portugues „!
@eduardo_augusto 🤜 🤛
Thank you very much everyone!!!
I prefer English, if it is OK with you, I don't command Portuguese.
I wrote in both Portuguese and English - for any possible person to be able to read and as a copy for me. and it is also good for folks searching this site at any of both languages.
And @LeoSantos , yes, I sent them what you refer as "bank check is a check issue by the bank itself and drawn against the bank account" - what is known as cashier check, I paid to the bank the needed amount and the bank produced a check of their own, from their own account, in Euros, to the IRN and this is what I have sent to IRN.
@portugalman8
Shalom! Where do you live in Israel? Been there a couple of times, amazing country.
Let's go point by point:
I live in Israel. The consular service here is WORSE than the one of Lisbon IRN, almost non-existing. Impossible to set appointments there. This is why I directed the process to the root - to IRN LisbonLet's not get things mixed up. IRN is the "Institute of Registries and Notary" is a public organization subordinated to the Ministry of Justice, and is dealing with civil registration and registration of entities and vehicles. The IRN is made up of several "conservatórias", located throughout the country. Some "conservatórias" do "a little of everything" while others are more especialized. However, if you sent your documents directly to IRN, that was a very bad decision. It's like you want to buy a car, and instead of going to a dealership, you simply show up at the factory's gate. Eventually someone will come talk to you, eventually someone will direct you to the nearest dealership... but then again, you could be speaking about the "Conservatória dos Registos Centrais", known also as CRC-Lisboa.
Concretely: the "conservatória" in Portugal that we recommend you use is the "Conservatória do Registo Civil", located in Porto. That's where you want to send your documents to. Follow @CarlosASP advice, hundreds of people here send their documents to Porto and it works fine. Trying to understand why it cannot be done elsewhere will just consume your time and frustrate you.
Yes, it's confusing: there's the "Conservatória dos Registos Centrais", called CRC-Lisboa; and there's the "Conservatória do Registo Civil", called CRC-Porto... and if memory serves me well, there's also the "Conservatória dos Registos Comerciais", which is also "CRC-Lisboa". Good luck with all that! Meaning: you have to be sure where you send your documents...
why do you think the IRN at Porto will give me a better service? Can't the IRN at Lisbon also provide me with a link to pay online using credit card? Is OK by the IRN processes for me to ask IRN Lisbon to transfer my request and papers to IRN Porto?Because CRC-Porto is the main "conservatória" for handling marriage registrations. They especialize in it, they do it all day long.
You have three options here:
(1) ask Lisbon to return your documents, then you send them to CRC-Porto;
(2) ask Lisbon to transfer your documents to CRC-Porto. Eventually someone might do that for you, but then you run the risk of CRC-Porto not knowing what to do with it, because they are used to receiving requests directly from people, not from Lisbon.
(3) Or, just say "oh well, whatever", get fresh copies of your documents and send them to CRC-Porto - this here would be my recommendation now.
I plan to travel soon to Lisbon, to produce the citizen card and passport (because of lack of local consular service). I plan to do this at the "Edifício J - Campus de Justiça". Can I pay there, cash or credit card, for the above marriage registration process? (although the file was sent to IRN office of "Conservatória dos Registos Centrais, Rua Rodrigo da Fonseca, 198, 1099-003 Lisboa" (I guess the IRN is part of the Justice government office)Here I cannot advise you. I know that it is possible to register your marriage on the same day in some situations, but I don't know where nor how.
How does Portugal allows itself to have such a bad public service???Short answer: poor country, compounded by old-fashioned management/laws/regulations/structure. We can only hope the new generation of Portuguese people, including those now obtaining portuguese citizenship, can change the country for the better! (it's not a bad place, though, quite on the contrary!)
@portugalman8 ,
Cashier check is not the same as certified check. The certified check is from your own account, you sign the check and the bank certifies your signature and that you have enough funds. The money stays in your account until the check is cashed. Usually the cashier check is safer than the certified check, but IRN may want to link the process to a payment method that includes your name and bank account.
@portugalman8
Our friend above has already explained why CRC Porto is one of the recommended places here; this forum lives off collective experience and feedback. We know that place accepts requests by mail; we know that it is possible to pay with card there; and, in the big scheme of things, processing times are "reasonable", though not the best. It depends on what you are comparing to. Consulate in São Paulo takes forever for a "transcrição de casamento", while the one in Rio is much speedier. Some consulates (like London) require that you already have a CC to do it... and that is how it goes.
Marriages can be "transcritos" (registered) in any "Conservatória de Registro Civil".
I do not know if the location in Campus da Justiça performs marriage registration, how long it takes etc.
Look, in some specific Conservatórias de Registro Civil in PT, I know that some people have walked in and managed to have a marriage registered quickly. In others, they will take your papers and eventually (who knows when) it will get done. That is the nature of the beast, each of them will have different processing times, accept different payment methods etc. And the situation in a conservatória some months ago may no longer correspond to current reality (work loads change, sometimes they get flooded with new requests, employees retire, get sick etc)
I was at Campus da Justiça a couple of months ago to get my passport. It only accepts cash for that (unless you have a debit card issued by a Portuguese bank, the so-called Multibanco system). If you get your passport order in before 11 am and pay the highest processing fee (100 euros), you can retrieve passport (they call it "levantar") at end of same day at Lisbon airport. I did it and it worked fine. You will need to already have CC in hand and bring your Israeli passport for applying for PT passport.
You can also request the CC at Campus da Justiça, or in other locations in Lisbon. I requested it at the "Loja do Cidadão" in Saldanha area, as I find it conveniently located walking distance to a number of hotels, subway stops etc. Same drill as for passport; cash only. and if you pay highest fee (53 euros I think), you can "levantar" it at end of day - at the Campus da Justiça though.
Word of caution: sometimes things go wrong, so I would pad some extra time (business days, not weekends or holidays) in Lisbon just in case. E.g., a couple of weeks ago there was a system outage at IRN offices and nothing could get processed that day. I applied for my CC at Saldanha just fine, but on following day when I went there back to apply for passport, a pipe had burst and location was closed... My CC was also further delayed by one business day because my last name was wrong in one of IRN systems - even though it was 100% correct on my PT birth certificate (heaven knows why). That had to be fixed and it is not an online, real-time system; it seems to work in batches that are updated maybe at end of each day.
Thank you all guys, you are awesome!
I didn't send it all to the central IRN in Lisbon by chance. I thought it will be better to send it directly to the main registration office, thinking it will be the safest, not lost in some rural office, that it will be the most modern, but it looks like things work in an opposite way in PT... I think it is also noted this way in their web site and I also had email exchange with IRN and they instructed me so. But nevermind now, the damage is done...
I really don't wish to collect and pay again for all documents from the beginning, it is a lot of time and money.@LeoSantos I wills ask IRN Lisbon to return the documents to me.
Do you know of any official CRC Porto web page explaining how to do this with them?
@portugalman8
No; there is not an official CRC Porto page about that.
As mentioned, this forum works based on collective experience and feedback - exactly because "real life" works very different from often incomplete "official" info.
Previous answer contains a link to thread where people comment on their experiences with CRC Porto; read at least a couple of latest pages of that thread to get an idea of its modus operandi based on people who dealt with it.
Hello all,
I am happy to share that eventually "CRC Lisboa - Distribuição", distribuicao.civil.lisboa@irn.mj.pt, asked "CRC Lisboa – Contabilidade", contabilidade.civil.lisboa@irn.mj.pt, to produce an web link for me to pay, at https://crcpagamentos.irn.mj.pt/ , and so I submitted this payment, received an email with a payment approval, which I sent back to the latter email address.
This allowed the process of the marriage registration to actually begin.
When I asked them how long will the registration take, they replied that now they are working on requests from April 2024, so I have at least 3 months to wait...
Today I even recieved to my home a pepar receipt for the above payment.
FYI.